1 John 1:5-10

[ryan]

5) - And this is the message which we have heard from Him, and we proclaim to you: God is light, and no darkness is in Him, none!

6) - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and we walk in darkness, we lie and are not practicing the truth.

7) - But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

8) - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9) - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10) - If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.[/b][/color]

[T]

In verse 7, is the "IF" in this verse conditional? Like "IF" we don't ask for forgiveness, "THEN" He doesn't forgive us?

[ryan]

Yes. All of the "If's" in verses 6-10 are 3rd class conditions in the Greek text. They are all the "If......then" scenarios. So for verse 7 it's saying IF we walk in the light, THEN we have fellowship with one another.

[Justin]

This needs to be taken with the understanding that walking in the light is salvation. So it's more like saying IF you are saved THEN you will have fellowship with one another. It doesn't mean: make sure you're walking in the light so you can have fellowship - does that make sense?

T - I'm curious about your question; are you saying that if we don't ask for forgiveness then we are not forgiven or is this for non-believers never asking the Lord to forgive them?

[T]

Well both I guess. Both non believers and believers will read this. Does it mean two different things for two different people? Are we commanded to ask for forgiveness or repent? the verses that come to mind are these:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 3:24 ¶ And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

**If I John 1:9 means we can ask for forgiveness (on a relationship level), so as to bring restoration to the relationship, then I totally get that. But if it means asking for forgiveness to receive salvation or to keep salvation or to be "cleansed", then I don't understand. I guess I am confusing myself, because I have ingrained in my head, years and years of pastors calling people to ask for forgiveness and ask Jesus into their heart and they will be saved. It seems to me that the apostles commanded all to repent and put their trust in Jesus Christ their redeemer. Am I off here?

[ryan]

A recap:

- Verse 5 tells us what this "Message" is, which is that God is light and there is no darkness in Him. (I'm still looking into this grammatically). Then verses 6-10 are basically showing proofs of a persons salvation by using hypothetical questions. For example in verse 7 this is not saying that we SHOULD walk in the light in order to HAVE fellowship. It’s a hypothetical question saying that those who ARE walking in the light (which is anyone who is saved) ARE HAVING fellowship with one another.

- In verse 8 the word “Sin” has no definite article so it’s NOT referring to the “Sin principle”, but just sin in general. And verse 10 is referring to specific acts of sin because it also does not have the definite article.

- A few questions that still remain:
1. -“THIS” is the message. What is the message? That” God is light”? Or does this refer back to something from verses 1-4? Because of the word “That” (HOTI in Greek, which is sometimes translated “Because). Is this saying that “God is light” is the REASON FOR the message? Or is it saying that the message IS “God is light”.

2. - What IS darkness? Is it just the absence of God? Is it “Not being able to see”. “Blinded so you can’t see the truth”? Right now we cannot be in a complete absence of God, because that can’t happen until someone is in Hell.

I think we still have a little more discussion to do on this section.

[ryan]

And I guess your question was never answered Mr. T. You have to remember that verses 6-10 are all hypothetical questions. These are also all "Proof" of savlation. Verses 6,8, and 10 are showing characteristics of a person who is NOT saved, while verses 7 and 9 are showing characteristics of a person who IS saved. So in verse 9 it's a hypothetical situation of what is going on with a saved person. Does that make sense?

[T]

okay, so if this is a hypothetical (if-then scenario) situation, does it mean that IF we don't confess our sins, THEN He won't forgive us?

[ryan]

I would say that it's more like this. IF a person is genuinely saved, they WILL be confessing their sins, and will be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

[Justin]

ditto...

[T]

But you just changed the condition from IF you confess your sins, to IF you are saved, THEN..... I don't see that in the text. Is there some hidden Greek language here? "If you confess...then He forgives." Isn't this the statement made here?

[ryan]

If (hypothetical) a person should confess their sins, then He is faithful and just. That's the condition. Then it says IN ORDER THAT (Showing purpose) He should (hypothetical) forgive us the sins. So it's saying that IF a person confesses their sins, then God is faithful and just for the purpose of forgiving sins. The fact that it's sandwiched in between two verses that say that a person who says that they HAVE no sin is not saved shows that verse 9 is showing the characteristic of a person who IS saved. Does that make sense?

[T]

Yes, that makes sense

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2012 15:59:25 GMT -7 ryan said:

A recap:

- A few questions that still remain:
1. -“THIS” is the message. What is the message? That” God is light”? Or does this refer back to something from verses 1-4? Because of the word “That” (HOTI in Greek, which is sometimes translated “Because). Is this saying that “God is light” is the REASON FOR the message? Or is it saying that the message IS “God is light”.

2. - What IS darkness? Is it just the absence of God? Is it “Not being able to see”. “Blinded so you can’t see the truth”? Right now we cannot be in a complete absence of God, because that can’t happen until someone is in Hell.

I think we still have a little more discussion to do on this section.

a couple interesting things here.

From my comments on verses 1-4 we saw that the sentence runs through the middle of verse 3 where the main verb “announce” is located. The Apostles (“we” = 1st hand accounts of those with Jesus specifically chosen and authorized to testify concerning Him) are “announcing” what was from the beginning. John then adds 4 secondary clauses modifying the 1st “what”. That it was 1) what they heard, 2) saw, 3) viewed in action and 4) touched. Now the word for “announce” in both verses 2 and 3 is apo + angellomen. Note that first part apo. It means this is the announcement coming from out of the apostles themselves as the source. Verse 5's “proclaim” is not that word. The “proclaim” in verse 5 is ana + angellomen. It means to be in the middle and pass something along. As the English paints this picture as well by saying that, “this message” in verse 5 is “the message” (definite article) from Him that we (the apostles) proclaim (“passed along”) to you. That makes the source of this message Jesus himself. As far as I know the “hoti” is used as a marker for indirect discourse. That is to say that, John is loosely quoting what Jesus said. The reason there are no quotes in the English is because it is indirect or a loose quote. added NOTE: Ryan, "hoti" is also used to "explain" something further. So, if the context is someone said something, I would think to use the indirect discourse application, but if it said He came into the world "hoti" he chose to experience humanity. Then from the context, "hoti" would be a further explanation translated as "because" or "that".

Secondly, Jesus said that “The God is light”. Note that the Greek prohibits one from saying “light is The God”. This is another example of a predicate nominative. The definite article is with God and makes God the subject and “light” the direct object. You may miss the distinction here so I'll use when Paul said that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light as an example. Some people today have had an “experience” with “light” and believe it to be God just because it is light. I have know several of these people personally in my life so far. This verse does not say that light is God, but that The God is light. That is what this text specifically says. The God is light and in Him is no darkness. Had the Greek text said that The light was God then whenever we see light, that light itself would be God. As to what “darkness” exactly is I do not know. I have heard exceptional studies on Genesis and the 6 day creation by God including the “light” and “dark” principles as they relate to our realm. Absolutely fascinating, but every time I think I am getting my head wrapped around what God might be saying, my head explodes. It’s not just the absence of God because in this context that makes no sense. In God is no absence of God?? It seems like something more akin to a spiritual realm with it’s own laws, especially created to co-exist within creation that makes it impossible for a christian who is defined as spiritually being present, right now, with God in God’s realm, exposed under the light, to at the same time be present spiritually in the realm of darkness. See, now my head is hurting again So when Paul said that we were (past tense) sealed in Him [Christ] with the Holy Spirit of promise, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and Peter says protected by the power of God, we can take comfort of our location and the impossibility of being in the realm of darkness. Now, realizing the purity of our position in Christ, where He is, and the consequence of sin in that location, according to the Law (Hebrew mindset), I get an insite as to why someone might say, but what if I commit a sin? Kinda makes me wanna cry.

[ryan]

1) - Okay, so you are saying that the "This message" in verse 5 is again referring to Christ Himself and not that "God is light"? And that the HOTI is just showing a further explanation of what John already said in the first few verses about Jesus being the message? Or are you saying that the message is "God is light" yet the SOURCE of the message is Christ (meaning that it CAME from Him)? Or am I misunderstanding what you said?

2) - How many times has your head exploded, and how have you been able to put it back together? This information might come in handy since the zombie apocalypse is upon us. ^_^.