Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2012 10:25:58 GMT -7
-Second, is the subjunctive hypothetical of - even if it were an Apostle making this claim, he lies, meaning the status of the person making the claim does not change the result.
How are you coming to this conclusion? Is this based on the 1 person verbs? Not sure how this pertains to a status of the one making the claim.
Yes partly. The verb εἴπωμεν "we say" is a 1st person plural of "say". So it is translated "We say". In Greek, the person and number is included in the verb.
This "we" is the same "we" that heard, saw, viewed, and touched i.e. "experienced" the Christ in bodily form, and the same "we" that heard the message from Him and now is passing that message along to the recipient(s) of the letter. That is the known status of the "we" from what is presented in 1John so far.
The conditional conjunction ἐὰν with the subjunctive verb shows that it is a hypothetical presentation. Added: Also note that the conditional part of the clause is first (if we should be saying...) in the sentence showing emphasis is going to this hypothetical claim and who is saying it.
That is the technical support that is provided by the text itself. Ergo, even if we (with the known status) should say....we lie.
As an interesting side note. Because of John's description of the "we"'s personal experiences, I have thought it most probable to think that the "we" are the Apostles of which John was one. We can keep in mind the qualifications of The (def art) Apostles known as “The Twelve”. They were chosen by Christ as disciples and then named Apostles by Christ (Matt 10:1-2, Luke 6:13). In MK 13:14, Jesus gave the purpose regarding his choice of The Twelve; that they would be 1. “with Him” and 2. “that he could send them out to preach”. The Apostles exclusive commission was to preach the Gospel (1Co 1:17) to the unbelieving Jews first (Matt 10:5-6) and then Gentiles (Acts 13:46, Rom 11:13). Later, they were to teach those converted (Matt 28:18). They were confirmed by signs (2Co 12:12). They were the authority for sound teaching (Acts 15:5).
And that is who Irenaeus is saying that the Gnostics were calling the the yucikoi - "animal men", but reserved for themselves the term pneumatikoi or "spiritual men, whose vocation was not to believe, but to know.”