Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2012 9:48:02 GMT -7
1) - Or are you saying that the message is "God is light" yet the SOURCE of the message is Christ (meaning that it CAME from Him)? Yes. I am saying that I believe John to be using "hoti" as a marker of indirect discourse because he says "this is the message that we heard and announce...hoti..." Because he is relating something that they heard, I think "hoti" means indirect quote. So John is quoting something Jesus said. Well, as you know better than I, it is not put back together correctly and every time it explodes I forget what happened. I am living the life of Memento. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2012 11:15:57 GMT -7
And verse 10 is referring to specific acts of sin because it also does not have the definite article. I don't think this is quite correct. Technically "sin" here is not a noun. It is a perfect tense, active voice, indicative mood verb. Perfect tense would show a present condition based upon a past action. Literally it reads "if we say that not we are in a present condition of sin [based upon a past action], we make Him a liar... I believe it to be saying that if someone claims to be in a condition of sinlessness...the make Him a liar... |
|
ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
|
Post by ryan on Oct 25, 2012 13:56:47 GMT -7
1) - Yes. I am saying that I believe John to be using "hoti" as a marker of indirect discourse because he says "this is the message that we heard and announce...hoti..." Because he is relating something that they heard, I think "hoti" means indirect quote. So John is quoting something Jesus said. Okay so how does the HOTI work here then? This (what I have already told you) IS the message BECAUSE (HOTI) God is light and there is no darkness in Him? Is that right? |
|
ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
|
Post by ryan on Oct 25, 2012 14:01:23 GMT -7
[/quote]
I don't think this is quite correct. Technically "sin" here is not a noun. It is a perfect tense, active voice, indicative mood verb. Perfect tense would show a present condition based upon a past action.
Literally it reads "if we say that not we are in a present condition of sin [based upon a past action], we make Him a liar...
I believe it to be saying that if someone claims to be in a condition of sinlessness...the make Him a liar...[/quote]
Okay, that makes sense. I'm not even sure where I got that from in the first place because reading through it I can see that it doesn't even make sense. Thanks!!
|
|
ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
|
Post by ryan on Oct 25, 2012 14:02:00 GMT -7
by the way, I can't figure out how to get this stupid "Quote" thing to work!!! I are smart!!!
^_^
|
|
|
|
Post by Justin on Oct 25, 2012 20:37:42 GMT -7
You're deleting the header from the quote code. At the very least delete the / from the first [/quote] - the / means END or STOP a funtion in HTML so you cant start a quote that way.
|
|
|
|
Post by T on Oct 25, 2012 21:05:00 GMT -7
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2012 21:56:56 GMT -7
Okay so how does the HOTI work here then? This (what I have already told you) IS the message BECAUSE (HOTI) God is light and there is no darkness in Him? Is that right? It doesn't work that way. Here is a verse where it means "because"- Philemon 7 For I have come to have much joy and comfort in your love, because [hoti] the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother. see, there is nothing in the context about someone having said something, so it's translated "because". |
|
|
|
Post by T on Oct 25, 2012 22:30:28 GMT -7
Just curious, if the above verse SAYS "which we have heard from HIM," and then procedes to tell us what He said, why does figuring out this "hoti" stuff help us understand MORE of what is being said? Seriously, just wondering...no sarcasm here. If it's a Greek thing that I wouldn't understand, then it's okay to tell me that. I understand when sometimes an explanation is way too advanced to even begin anew to try to explain, so it's okay if that is the case here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Justin on Oct 26, 2012 6:34:20 GMT -7
I'll let Memento answer the technical aspect but for me personally you have touched on something that I believe is very important and is very helpful for me.
I hear all the time "context is king" and "always read 5 verses before and 5 after"; for the most part that is correct. But as I started leaning the language a bit (I'm still way behind Mark, Ryan and little Timmy... and Moby) I realized that advice can be a problem.
The Bible is built upon sentences just like any other writing and that is where the context key is. If we go by verses then we can break up sentences, concepts and even thought patterns of the author.
To bring it around to your question, the answer is not "can it be determined from context" but rather "can it be confirmed by the grammar". That's what the HOTI (not hottie) discussion is about.
I know it can look like as waste of time because the text appears to say X or Y but many a Christian has had one view of a section of scripture while another has a completely different view. The only way to know for sure is to pin down exactly what is being said... suddenly scripture opens up into this beautiful big picture.
I suspect here that it is more for Ryan's understanding of the function of the grammar while confirming what you may have already determined. Plus it helps me a ton to gain a better understanding.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 8:13:45 GMT -7
I'll let Memento answer the technical aspect ... I suspect here that it is more for Ryan's understanding of the function of the grammar while confirming what you may have already determined. Plus it helps me a ton to gain a better understanding. I explain it this way. English versions vary in what words they choose to use. If someone came to the right conclusion then that is great. But how do they prove that to a person using another version with a different word that came to a different conclusion. The answer is that they can't. So people end up taking it personally and that's where many needless arguments start. Knowing what the Greek word is and how the rules apply removes all doubt. Argument prevented, understanding gained, personal belief removed! Thats a winning combination in my book! |
|
|
|
Post by T on Oct 26, 2012 18:45:59 GMT -7
These indeed are all win win scenarios for sure. Thanks guys. My major downfall is, I have forgotten most grammar definitions like: an indefinite article or neuter noun, or a proton neuron, or a feministical panda bruno.  So, I guess I need to go back and learn the rules all over again. |
|
ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
|
Post by ryan on Oct 26, 2012 22:00:53 GMT -7
It's been quite a while since we have come across a feministical panda bruno. I think those are only used like 2 or 3 times in the whole Bible. ^_^
|
|
|
|
Post by T on Oct 27, 2012 8:47:26 GMT -7
haha!
|
|
ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
|
Post by ryan on Nov 1, 2012 21:11:37 GMT -7
Okay, I'm sorry to keep beating this horse, but for me he just ain't dead yet!! ^_^.
So, the HOTI here is showing a further explanation? Isn't that what GAR does?
And when it says, "This is the message that we heard FROM HIM, (HOTI) God is light, etc...." Isn't the part that says "God is light...." THE message that they heard from Jesus? So wouldn't it be safe to say that "This message" IS "God is light.......". Does my question make sense? Why am I not getting this? ^_^
|
|
So, I guess I need to go back and learn the rules all over again.