Let's get this party started!!

[ryan]

Okay, how should we start this party? I'm appealing to the other three members of this board so far, 2 of which are the same person. Basically I am asking the Chamberlain duo for some good topics here. Since they are just dripping with spirituality I figured they would know such things.

[Justin]

I'd like to get into the foundation of scripture vs experience at some point. Especially since Satan can appear as an angel of light, can we as humans ever know sound doctrine or truth apart from His Word?
Perhaps we can clarify certain scriptural topics like salvation as well. I know Tommy had some ideas. He can throw those out there and I know Jessica was wondering about the benefits of a 12" skillet vs. a 10"; especially with the cover...

[T]

I think topical would be interesting. We could really narrow, or hone in on a particular subject. Like, what's God's Word say the church should look like, or what does it mean to be pure, what's it mean to be holy?

[Justin]

Good thinking T,
The question might be said "does God's Word tell us what the church should look like?" or is there an example in scripture of what it should look like? Given man's tendency to try and do God's for Him imagine we would try to force a model of the church, which is perhaps what we're doing today. I'll go through Acts and look at the example of the early church - perhaps someone can approach the "pastoral" epistles to gain some clues there.

[ryan]

The question was asked, “What is the church supposed to look like?”. The simple answer is that it’s supposed to look exactly how it DOES look right now. A group of people (though quite small in number) who are indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, who is working in them and through them to fulfill His work and plan. However, this is not what most people see when they view the “Church”. Is this because God is not doing His work? Is it because people need to step up to the plate and start acting like Christians? No. More likely it’s that most people who are in church buildings on Sunday are probably not saved, and these are the people who are viewed as “The church”.

I think that a better question would be “WHO is the church”? The word for church in the NT is the Greek word EKKLESIA, and it means “Called out ones”. The problem that we have today is that anybody and everybody who claims to be a Christian is deemed a Christian based on that persons own confession about themselves. This is simply not true. Nowhere in Scripture are we told that we can know who the Christian’s are by what comes from their mouths in the form of their own confession. It says that we will know them by their fruit (Matthew chapter 7). Many take this verse to mean that Christians need to get on out there and bear some fruit so that others will know that they are Christians. This is the opposite of what is being taught. When a person is genuinely saved and have the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, there WILL be fruit. If there isn’t any fruit than the person is dead spiritually. The Spirit of Christ that dwells within is the one who produces the fruit, not the people.

I realize that there is SO much more to this topic and hopefully this will spark some discussion, so I will just leave it at that and let you all add your input.

[T]

Ryan, you stated, "Nowhere in Scripture are we told that we can know who the Christian’s are by what comes from their mouths in the form of their own confession."
Though I agree with you that "by their fruits we will know them," but what about Romans 10:9-10?

Rom 10:9 KJV - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 KJV - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The reason I asked the question about the church is because it seems to be our duty to be aware and "mark" those that are of the way; so as to guard against the enemies of Christ that are among us. Paul used himself as an example to go by, as a barometer, if you will, to determine who are of the way. If this is true, then what characteristics or virtues or fruits (by name) are the follower's of Jesus supposed have. Paul said to imitate him, but how, if we don't know everything about Paul. How do we "mark" those that are of the way, unless we have this teaching understood completely.
Phl 3:15 KJV - Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Phl 3:16 KJV - Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phl 3:17 KJV - Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Phl 3:18 KJV - (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:

My hope here by doing this study, is that we will have learned from scripture what Paul looks like as an example of a Christian, and what Paul in his letters said he witnessed among the believers as good traits and the bad traits, so as to be able to accomplish these verses in Philippians.

[ryan]

I'm not sure if these verses from Romans 10 apply to what I was saying about confession. Romans 10:9-10 is referring to a genuine confession that overflows from your heart and out of your mouth. These verses are not saying that this is how we can know who the Christians are, but rather showing that if (conditional clause) this takes place in a persons life, they will be (future) saved. What I was getting at is that nowhere in Scripture does it say that just because someone says with their mouth that they are saved, that we can trust that they are. The point of Romans 10:9-10 is the HEART. The word "Confession" means "To speak the same". In these verses it's referring to the mouth speaking the same thing that is in the heart. It IS possible to confess with the mouth, that which is NOT true in the heart. This would be a false confession and what is going on in much of the "church" today. Does that make sense?

[ryan]

And as far as the second part of your post Mr. T, maybe Justin can shed some light?

[Justin]

Well, I would say (regarding the church and confessing with the mouth), that since a believer is known by their fruit - that confession is a result of salvation and alongside (seperate from) bearing fruit. Salvation is the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, the fruit of that Spirit is given to us in Galations 5:22-23.

Scripture does tell us that believers are know by their fruit, but are we instructed to identify believers? I think that they will ultimatly be identified as not truly saved either by their lack of fruit or by "going out from us because they were not of us..."

After going through Acts (and etc.) it's very clear that the churh is the body of true believers regardless of location and is not dependend on a gathering or building: For example the church is the people in their homes in Act 8:3 "But Saul kept trying to destroy the church. Going into one house after another, he began dragging off men and women and throwing them in prison."
Also, in Acts 14:27, they called the church together showing that the church is the body of believers even when they are apart: " When they arrived, they called the church together and told them everything that God had done with them and how he had opened a door so that gentiles would believe."

In summary I would say that the church is made up of true believers (EKLESIA = the called out ones) and a true believer is recognized by Gal 5:22-23. The question remains: are we supposed to be identifying believers and is it up to us to try to look like one (or like Paul) per the Phil vs quoted earlier?

[ryan]

What happened guys? Did we let this one die? Where's your input Mr. T? Ha, Mr. T!! I pity the foo who won't answer this post!! ^_^

[T]

I'm still trying to figure out what Paul means to imitate him, and what he means when says to ''mark' those that are of the way or those that do imitate Paul. ====Phil. 3:15-18

[Justin]

It appears that he's telling them to seek out those that are like him - in order that we may follow them as our pattern. In this way we (they) may imitate Paul by seeking out those who are walking that way.
In this day it's even more important: in the apostate church, where most will not endure sound doctrine we need to seek out those few who are walking according to scripture and Paul's teaching - especially since we will be judged by Pauls gospel (Rom 2:16).

[T]

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, why does Paul need to tell us to imitate him, when our walk in Christ is through the Spirit's leading. Does Justin need anyone to tell him how to act? Or, tell him what a proper christian is to look and act like? If a person has been truly born again, why is instruction even necessary?

[ryan]

Okay. So, T, is what you are asking related to 1 John 2:27?

"But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him."

[T]

um, you know, that verse never crossed my mind, but yeah I guess. I was going off Justin's response to imitating Paul. I just was wondering why we need to imatate anyone, if we each are being led by the Spirit? And if we really need Paul as an example to follow, we ought to know this Paul inside and out and by-golly be acting just like him. I guess forget about the whole WWJD thing. It's more like, WWPD?