ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
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Post by ryan on Mar 24, 2012 18:09:58 GMT -7
okay, then lets move back over to the "Makeup" thread and "Apply" what we have learned here because I'm still not quite understanding.
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Post by T on Mar 24, 2012 19:52:01 GMT -7
That's right. Justin didn't answer your question. Justin, you gotta go back to Ryan's prior post in this forum. He had a question about conviction and application
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Post by Justin on Mar 24, 2012 20:37:56 GMT -7
Wow... you must have posted at the same time as me this morning T. I don't see your response to Ryan until now.
Where is the confusion? I thought it was answered. It's hypothetical, the verse does not apply to everyone and doesn't even mention make up.
The Spirit must convict a person on a per case basis, you can not say makeup is wrong scripturally. It depends on motive and conviction. For the person who is convicted, they are now faced with the decision making process.
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ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
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Post by ryan on Mar 25, 2012 0:11:44 GMT -7
Okay. But where is the idea that "the Spirit must convict a person on a per case basis" coming from? And how is it hypothetical? Where is that coming from? And I realize that it doesn't specifically mention make-up by name but the concept is there. the point of make-up is to draw attention. That's like saying "the words 'don't watch other people have sex' are not in the Bible so how do we know that's what is meant by pornography?" In the Scripture in 1 Peter 3:1-4 where it says "Let it not be the outward act" is a command. I could see if someone could say that this only applies to those women who are married to non-believers but is this really so? And in 1 timothy 2:9-10 it also addresses this so are we to say that this only applies to Pastor's wives? So every other woman except those who are pastor's wives or are married to non-believers are okay to draw attention to their physical appearance? It's also interesting how in 1 tim 2:10 it says that these things are in contrast to "What is proper for a woman professing Godliness". A woman professing Godliness would be a Christian woman right?
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Post by Justin on Mar 25, 2012 16:59:31 GMT -7
So you're saying these verses happy to ALL women even though both scriptures address specific groups? Is it OK for a woman to braid her hair then? Not according to these verses.
Or... it's about an attitude of the heart and not outward actions. So a woman with the right heart can, indeed braid her hair and wear make-up.
Just like circumscision was supposed to be of the heart, and the law was of the heart, so these verses talk about a woman's heart.
Scripture talks about the dictate of our consciense, that's per person. Some eat meat, some ony vegetables, some honor the Sabath and some all days alike - let EACH be convinced in HIS own mind. As they mature the Spirit will show them the truth. That's a per case basis.
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ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
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Post by ryan on Mar 25, 2012 18:46:12 GMT -7
I guess that's what I'm asking. Are these verses just saying that women married to pastor's and women married to non-believers are the only ones who are not supposed to braid hair etc? Or is it in principle referring to all women, in which case YES women should not braid their hair or wear make up if it's going to draw any attention at all to their physical appearance? And why do you think that all women should be happy? Where are you getting that from? ^_^
I guess my main question is this: Where are we getting the idea that these scriptures are referring to an attitude of the heart? Is there Scripture to support this or are we just assuming this because, well "All women style their hair and wear make-up, so therefore that can't be wrong"? I'm not saying that it's NOT referring to a heart response, I'm just wondering where this is coming from.
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Post by T on Mar 25, 2012 20:33:39 GMT -7
Ryan, I think if you believe that allowing your daughter to wear makeup will cause another young christian man to stumble, then don't allow it and give your daughter the reason why (I Cor. 8 maybe). If she can't give you a good reason to why she wants to wear it, then make a 'no makeup' rule that is established until she comes to you with a good reason. If our actions are done in love and with our brothers and sisters in mind, I don't see how we can go wrong. To me, this is a real gray area that may only be handled by the leading of the Spirit and filtered through the lens of love.
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Post by Justin on Mar 26, 2012 6:55:33 GMT -7
I agre with T,
The Word is about the heart, the Peter verse says it's about the hidden man of the heart.
Is it possible that you've already decided what this verse means and you're seeking support for that view? God looks at the heart and motives, not outward appearance does He not? That's what Jesus told the pharisees.
Why do women wear make-up?
Why does Bill wear a suit?
Why do we wear deodorant?
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ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
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Post by ryan on May 17, 2012 7:34:26 GMT -7
Hi guys. i was just re-reading through this and I'm still curious about my question. I understand what you guys are saying and I think I agree. However I never really got a direct answer to my question above which was:
Okay, so then it the case of the "Make-up" thing you would say that if a person read the verse from 1 Peter (and I'm just assuming for the sake of this particular discussion that the verse DOES mean that a person should not do anything to draw attention to their physical qualities even though I'm not sure on this yet) and they weren't "Cut to the heart" that they should still continue to do it even though they know that it's wrong Scripturally?
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Post by Justin on May 17, 2012 10:45:59 GMT -7
I would say that if a person isn't convicted then they don't see it's wrong scripturally... or they don't have the Spirit so they don't really care - even if they can mentally read it's wrong.
Sometimes we just don't see something because the Lord is working in other areas. Since the make-up issue is a heart response and NOT a sinful act, the Lord may be working on that person's heart and outward appearance will be a result of that change. It would be foolish to try and force that person to follow the "rule" of no make-up when it's about a change of the heart.
Trying to obey this without the Lord changing the heart will be pointless and worse yet - a work towards trying to please the Lord.
Allow the Spirit to convict and change that person's heart - all the time loving them as a little child of God. Nurturing them in the areas where they are weakest.
If you shoot at someone where their armor is weakest then you're their enemy, if you cover their weak spot with your own body then you're their friend.
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ryan
NEANISKOS
Posts: 106
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Post by ryan on May 23, 2012 6:31:58 GMT -7
Okay, just to make sure I understand this. As we study the Scriptures we are to let The Lord work on OUR hearts as He wills. If The Lord happens to lead someone to the same verse and then also leads that person to talk with us about it, then we should share what The Lord has revealed to us with that person. We should never take what the Bible says and attempt to "Do" it or "Apply" it to ourselves or anyone else. If the bible says something is wrong, then it is not wrong until The Lord applies it to our hearts. And even if He DOES apply it to OUR hearts, that doesn't mean that He has applied to another's heart, and therefore we should not confront that person with what WE have had applied to OUR hearts. We are to wait until The Lord convicts that person also (and He may not). Is this about right?
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