Application.

[ryan]

Okay, so what are your thoughts on "Application"? I have been involved in Bible studies where people always push application. They say that it's not about the knowledge that you gain through the study, but how you apply it to your life. Just "Knowing" or "Learning" something is not enough. Biblically speaking, can WE ever apply anything spiritual to our lives, or can only The Lord do this?

[Justin]

Well, I think the answer comes from what scripture makes important: God's people perish from a lack of knowledge, Jesus told the pharisees that their error was that they didn't KNOW scripture (they were certainly trying to apply it). Paul tells us to study to show ourselves approved and Peter tells us to make God's Word top priority.

Couple that with the fact that there is "NO good thing in my flesh" and the "best I can do is like a filthy rag to Him" - I would say that trying to apply scripture is not only wrong - but a filthy offense to God and a gross act of defiance.

God is only please with His Son - not our attempts to apply His Word, however we deem appropriate, by our limited understanding of scripture.

[T]

Naturally my response to this brings to question the interpretation to James 2:17-26. Faith without works is dead. Abraham proved his love to God, even above his son of promise, by his obedience. We know we aren't saved by works but rather works are proven changes of what God's Spirit is doing in us. My understanding is, once born of the Spirit, God's will is our sanctification and renewing of our minds. I see no good in walking away from God's word, trusting His Spirit has taught me something new, only then to NOT apply it when the situation arises. When my daughters do this enough times, I call it rebellion, in which discipline is necessary to enforce change. I want to apply what God has taught me, not to impress Him, but to show my love, honor and praise I have for HIM. On the same note, a person that has spent years getting a degree in architecture would be foolish to never apply what he has learned in school in his new career. This is how I see a person full of knowledge, but never makes the choice to apply it. It's vanity! We weren't robots before being saved, we aren't robots after being saved. The choice remains in us to yield to our flesh or yield to our Lord. The battle rages on, but God says choose life! Choose to walk in the Spirit, walk IN His Word, for it is a light to our path.

[Justin]

I would agree with that if earthly knowledge were the same as God's knowledge. God's knowledge is to renew our minds and undo the effects of a lifetime of sin on our lives. The Spirit won't teach us something new expecting us to go do it - but rather He changes us so that we respond in a new (renewed) fashion to a situation.

I don't think Abraham proved (nor had to prove) his love for God as if God didn't know. Those trials are for us - Abraham had already left his home, been led by the Lord for years and was given the son of promise. God brought him through the trial to show those who follow why Abraham was the father of faith. As Hebrews tells us he believed God would raise the son of promise. His faith was in the believing God, not the action.
This is also a time when there was no indwelling of God's Spirit and prior to the law. He was not applying anything learned but rather obeying a direct order.

As far as faith without works - the literal translation is 'activity' for works and doesn't necessarily mean action perceivable in the flesh but rather the Spirit's activity in a believer. Something that is ALWAYS taking place.
It's also interesting to note that the word 'works' is not a command - something we must do, but something that is happening. Conversely, if the Lord has clearly directed us from scripture and we don't obey (get up and follow Him) then we are rebelling in our flesh as well.

If we were to take the bible as a textbook and attempt to apply it to our lives then wouldn't that be human effort in the flesh?

[T]

You said in "let's get this party started" forum, the bible is our guide and used to convict us. So after we are convicted don't we have a decision to change "repent" toward God, our ignore Him and suffer discipline? Is this not a choice we have to make, not the Spirit making a choice for us? Are we puppets? I'm not talking about human effort to be saved. I mean simply following Him and making the conscious decision to do as such. Otherwise, what the heck is scripture used for? We are not dead, but ALIVE in Christ! Not perfected yet, but being sanctified. Another thing here so I'm not misunderstood, I believe this work is of the Spirit and a born again person should not have to be preached or told, or even encouraged to "apply God's Word to his/her life, this alone is the work of the Spirit. Sometimes, I don't like these forums, cause I think many times we both are speaking the same thing, just different words, but the spirit of our thought is the same. If not recognized as such, these discussions can turn destructive.

[Justin]

I agree - these forums can be a problem. It's also hard (impossible?) to determine tone and intent. I do love the discussion and discovery of truth and our dialogs have been fruitful for me. I always love your perspective T and you challenge me to dig deep.

I also agree that decision making is the one thing we are to do, but that's not the same thing as trying to apply scripture to our daily activities. No, we are not puppets, but we are dumb sheep. We really don't know what to do, or even pray for that matter. We can not be expected to know when or even how to apply God's Word.

He must change our minds so our decision making process lines up with Him and we see things from His perspective. Then our decisions will based upon His Word... in that respect I suppose we are applying scripture; but not out of human effort but out of a changed mind.

[T]

Okay, see Ryan this is what I mean. I totally agree with you. This means I was pi Okay, see Ryan this is what I mean. I totally agree with you. This means I was probably not being clear enough for anyone to realize that my thoughts are the same as you and Justin's. So when I was talking about the Spirit teaching us as we read the Word, or hear the Word, taking what we have been taught and applying it, I fully meant this as me finally aligning myself to His will and then doing (applying) it. I just didn't say it like how Justin or you said it. From now on, please understand that I know we are dumb sheep. I know that aside from Christ we can do nothing. Therefore, everything I say in regards to application is never due to my strength, but everything to do with God renewing my mind, I repent (that is turn back to His way), agree that He is right and then proceed to walk in His will, (that is in my language, applying it). I may not be directly under the teaching of Mr. Klein, but I'm fairly certain we have the same mindset. tiable not being clear enough for anyone to realize

[ryan]

Okay, so then the Scriptural answer to this is that we don't "Apply" anything that we learn. But rather we make the decision to put ourselves in positions where we are going to hear the word so that God will take the Scriptures and "Apply" them to us. He is the only One who can apply these truths to our lives and He is the only One who can make changes in our lives. Capeesh?

[T]

I just want to make sure I understand....we don't apply anything of what God may teach us, but when we want advice for life situations from fellow humans, we take the advice we like, and apply it to our lives? How is this right?
-example: Make up

[ryan]

Huh? "Take the advice we like"? With the make up thing I was just wondering about the verse from 1 Peter that I quoted. I was curious if it means that we shouldn't do anything to draw attention to our physical appearance. I think I see what you are saying though. If we read a Scripture and learn that it means that we shouldn't do something (like the 1 Peter verse) then we should no longer do it right? So you are saying that this a "Applying" God's word to our lives. That makes sense. I am curious if a person who is REALLY saved will eventually come to this conclusion without Scripture? Because the spirit of Christ will lead them to this conclusion? I think I see what you are saying T. And now I am even more curious as far as the convo between you and Justin above goes. Justin, do you see what he is saying. If so, how does what he is saying "Apply" to what you are saying? ^_^.

[Justin]

This is what I addressed earlier - if God convicts from His Word and we continue on that path we are rebelling. His Word says don't be drunk - so we make the decision to not be drunk. It all takes place in the mind long before we act.

Obedience becomes a reaction - not a practice.

The difference I see is in response vs. applying out of our flesh. If we read something in His Word and decide to go apply it - we are going forth on our own without God. Yet if His Word cuts us to the heart on an issue then He is beggining the surgery and we must make a decision to change and decide in our minds.

[ryan]

Okay, so then it the case of the "Make-up" thing you would say that if a person read the verse from 1 Peter (and I'm just assuming for the sake of this particular discussion that the verse DOES mean that a person should not do anything to draw attention to their physical qualities even though I'm not sure on this yet) and they weren't "Cut to the heart" that they should still continue to do it even though they know that it's wrong Scripturally?

[T]

Okay, I can see Justin's side here. If we walk away from say, this verse in Peter, and God begins to do a work of change in our mind, and once that surgery is complete we now start thinking and acting differently. So therefore, on the outside, it would seem like a person is "applying" God's Word to their life because people recognize the godly change. But really, God did the change, not us. Is that right Justin?
Honestly though, I'm still hung up on the choice part. We still choose to obey or not. So that choice in my mind is what I mean when I say apply. I choose to obey, therefore I'm applying God's lesson and life change to my life. Maybe there is a process here that I'm missing? Maybe God convicts, I react in obedience or repentance, then God does a surgical change that makes me think differently, therefore I will act according to His will in that newly change area of my life. And because that change was made, no need for applying, I've been reprogrammed. Is that how it works?
Ryan, I didn't mean anything bad by bringing up "make up" I just felt like we needed to use an example of one of our own discussions, to remind us that in that discussion you were seeking a biblical answer. To which when you find it, I'm sure you're going to apply it, right? But if you choose to apply it, then that goes against this discussion on "application."

[Justin]

Why use a hypothetical when there are so many clear directives?
If the Spirit did convict someone then they have a decision to make. Respond or rebel. It's up to the Lord to convict people and up to them to make a decision to change. Then, when faced with opportunity, they can either obey or rebel.

The difference is: that same person reading that verse, assuming it means never wear makeup and goes out practicing that every day.
Often these people feel very spiritual about the matter and judge those who don't do the same (Rom 14)
Obedience vs Application

[T]

Good enough for me.