1 John 2:18-21

[T]

I am thankful to Him for making me to see. A burden indeed, but one that is much lighter than the one I once carried. He has given me joy that I know cannot be taken away. Yet while remaining in this joy, I desire to have fellowship with people who share this same joy and desire to grow in Him. I want to have more of THAT fellowship, say maybe like once a week minimum, like maybe on Sunday to name a specific day, but certainly not limited to this one day! Okay, I got a little silly there for a moment, but I'm serious about wanting, needing this type of fellowship. Maybe you can pray that my family and I find such a thing once again.
As for the next generation, as men, it is critical that we make the decision not to try and change THEM, but determine amongst ourselves, to live as Christ, to follow Him, to intercede for our own family and children, pastors and fellow believers; to trust the Lord to make divine appointments with those He places in our path, and be ready to share as the Holy Spirit would have us to. As The Word says, these three will endure and remain, faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love. I see the love in believers FOR believers fading, and if this love fades, how then can we love our enemies? How then will the world ever see Christ in us, the hope of glory? It’s our CHOICE…choice…choice…choice...(a little, “Cloudy with a chance of Meatballs,” humor).
Once again, Mark thank you for sharing a small part of your walk with the Lord for me and others to hear (read).
PS to Justin, I don’t mean “to determine amongst ourselves” as “to apply”, but rather a call to yield to His Lordship; to do what we already know He wants us to do, but we may be choosing not to do it. It’s a yielding to Him that I mean here. Just making sure you understood what I was saying. Yeah, NOT like, “I’m DETERMINED to do THIS for the Lord today”, but rather, “Lord, here we are, the men you have called, send us!

[ryan]

Wow, great convo. I also appreciate you sharing those things about your testimony Mark. I didn't even know most of that stuff!! ^_^. Very well said. One thing I would say about your last post T, is that I'm not sure I would say that "The love in believers FOR believers is fading". I'm not sure that this is possible since that would mean that God Himself (who IS love) is fading. I think it's more likely that what is happening (And I have seen this happen in my own life) is that it is being manifested more and more who is really of The Lord (Saved) and who isn't.

[T]

yep, i guess you're right. So it goes both ways, either they aren't saved, or I'm not saved.

[Deleted]

You guys joke around so much and I am new here. I don't know if I am supposed to take you serious or in jest. Anyway, here is a post from years ago that might be helpful about the topic of "love". Love as with discernment, as with genuine fellowship, as with being drawn to the Word, as with tolerating-even seeking sound doctrine are all EVIDENCES that the Spirit of God is working in a person. Someone who wants "this kind of fellowship" like digging into the Greek and wanting to "unlearn" things that were taught that won't stand up to the Scriptures are not the evidences of being lost. Let that encourage all of us. We may indeed just be among the few on the narrow path. Anyway, a Christian must really come to understand how different God's concept of "love" is as compared to our societies concept. Forgive my laziness as I just cut and paste and cleaned up a previous post, but I think it is every bit as true today as then.

"As I see it , this boils down to two things. When you say "still love
them" what does that mean? No one seems to be saying that the
Christian is not to Love their enemy, neighbor, brethren, God, etc.
Just as the text states. But what does that mean? Ask a hundred
people, does the most popular answer win? lol sadly.

Biblical Love is not an English word or concept. There is a Human form
of Love different than God's love that peeks out at many a religious
activity. It's different in motive, different in practice, and
different in end result. In English "love" means many things to many
people like kindness, sweetness, thoughtfulness, helping hand,
donating, feeder, planter, smile, receive, builder, loaner, and other
great acts of humanitarian kindness. I mean I feel good, like love,
because you feel good. and these are all good things in and of them
selves But John 3:16 is the premier verse for laying out what Biblical
Love is all about.

NKJ John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only
begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have
everlasting life.
The English word translated "so" has been made a "big and bigger" and
"loud and louder word in some sermons. God SooooooooOOOO
loved...spreading out the hands as to show how big God's love is. The
problem is that the Greek word for the the English "so" is NOT an
adjective describing size, but an adverb of manner showing "in what
manner", or "in this way" God loved the world. The English word
translated "that" is in Greek a "purpose driven conjunction" (sorry,
couldn't pass it up) and means "in order that" whoever might believe
into Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

So what was the manner by which God choose to show His love to the
world? He gave His only begotten Son= a sacrificial cost

And what was the purpose or goal of His giving His only begotten Son
up to the cross? "in order that" whoever believes in Him should not
perish but have everlasting life. Eternal Life=now seeking the
spiritual success of others.

God suffered the separation of His Son to the cross to win the
believers eternal salvation. Thats God's Love. Man, gotta take a pause
at that.

This root concept is found in almost every usage of the Agape "love"
translation in the New Testament. So this is my statement: When a
Christian uses the word love in regards to the biblical usage they are
to be using it as meaning something close to "a sacrificial love that
seeks the spiritual success of others" because that is how God uses it
and when He tells us to love- he is talking about giving others His
love not our worldly version of love. May I refer back to a previous
post and reference that The persuasion that is coming from out of God
as a source will be generating a Godly Love. that is Agape. May I ask
that you consider the following verses:


NKJ 1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
The grammar order here means that God is love and it cannot be
switched to say that love is God. Therefore, to say that because I am
loving them I am giving them God would be incorrect. the text states
that when I am giving them God from within me I am giving them Love.
Because God is love.

NKJ Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love...
"of the Spirit" is genitive and shows who's love it is. Man does not
produce God's love, the Spirit produces God's agape love.

2 John 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments.
It is not "normal" for a person to pick up their cross and follow
after Jesus. What is normal is to glorify self. Again, a "walk" or
lifestyle that demonstrates biblical character is an evidence of the
kind of change that only God's presence can produce. A lifestyle
that demonstrates consistently over time a sacrificial behavior that
puts another's spiritual condition over and above themself.



NKJ 1 John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is
perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
"Keep" is not a performance word. It means to guard His Word in
your heart as to not let anything take it away or diminish it's priority.
The prioritizing and guarding of God's Word is tied to God's agape love.
Love has found it's perfect end in the one who is guarding God's word.
This is an evidence that we are in Him.

NKJ 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He
loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
This points out the in-effectiveness of the love that emanates from us.
We never sought out Him until He sought us out. Human love was utterly
incapable of breaking through the sin barrier then and it is now, otherwise
Christ's death was completely unnecessary.

NKJ 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God;
and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
First, "another" is the Greek word for "of the same kind". It means
Christians demonstrating God's love toward other Christians.
"love is of God" reads literally as "The love from out of God is". Again demonstrating the
source of The Love. It is not produced in man, not authored by man, not from out of
man, but agape is from God, a fruit of the Spirit and originates from out of God. It is the very Nature of God Himself.
Also, keep in mind that a lot of these types of statements about loving one another are from the
perspective of Old Testament Law following Jews not receiving New Testament Grace recipients yet still claiming
to be God's people. The love of God is the rallying place. The presence of the Spirit in two people, no matter
what their background or personality conflicts will be the point of fellowship. God's love in the one will connect with
God's love in the other. This is the concept behind "you will know them by their fruits".
But, someone claiming to be saved who is not will fail this test every time.



You see, Love is not a thing as much as it is the person of God. A mature worthy walk, grounded in sound doctrine, controlled by the
Spirit, exudes God's love to all those around. This is our testimony of Him in us. Any attempt at human love cannot do that,
it must be His love. Agape Love is a sacrificial love from out of God who's motive is the spiritual welfare of others. It is pure in motive.
It's goal is eternal life, it is pure and untainted in authorship and it is so powerful that it rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His
beloved Son. Hallelujah

I mean really, let us get serious here about ourselves, we are sinners who have been saved, how could we think that we could or ever should compete with that! It's not a loophole it's just it must be God. I am all for showing the Love, but it has to be from Him, according to Him, and all pointing toward Him. It is our walk with Him in sound doctrine that is the testimony to the lost, it is our strange ways and refusals to participate in ungodly and scriptural events that testify about Him, What the world sees when the Christian "denominations" compromises
soul saving doctrine for the sake of ecumenicism, is a hypocritical religion with no power to save the soul. With the Spirit of Christ in the lead, can I minister to the lost or even the religious, the truths of the scriptures? Frashizzle! When I say love them, I mean um, give them whatever the Spirit in me gives them. And if they hate it and reject it and never want to see or hear me again, I still loved them. My favorite example is Ezekiel doing over 70 times the "thus sayith the Lord" thing only to have them "contort" their faces out of shape in anger and rage, yet Ezekiel was doing exactly what God instructed and it was all for their spiritual good. We are to be looking out for others spiritual welfare realizing that they have a free will right to say no. But that is different than "fellowship" which requires Philippians 2:2 make my joy complete by being OF THE SAME MIND, MAINTAINING THE SAME LOVE, UNITED IN SPIRIT, INTENT ON ONE PURPOSE. Without a like mind, like love, unity in the Spirit, and that same purpose there can be no fellowship.
Does that make sense now?"

[ryan]

FRASHIZZLE!!!! Word Yo! ^_^

[ryan]

I've also said it like this before. You can be loving someone that you don't like. Much of the time when we talk about "Love" we are talking about a human "Like" which is not the same as AGAPE love.

[T]

understood...most excellant

Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

[Deleted]

it’s interesting to me in the context of what we have been talking about here regarding God’s love verses cultures concept of love. Although not all English versions make it evident, but Romans 12 verses 18-21 are connected together in the Greek. Verse 18 states that as much as possible, as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Vs 19 states literally yourselves not be avenging beloved ones, but leave room for “the wrath” FOR it is written Lit: TO ME VENGEANCE I MYSELF WILL REPAY. It is in light of this presentation of God’s Sovereignty and our “not thinking higher than we ought to” presented earlier in the chapter, that this quote from Proverbs 25:21-22 about heaping coals that T quoted, is being referenced. That’s why in verse 20 it starts out in the Greek and some English versions with “Therefore”. Therefor what? Well, as I understand the presentation, Since God is sovereign over all things and the administrator of The Wrath, we (believers) would be thinking higher of ourselves than we ought to if instead of seeking peace, we take vengeance into our own hands. We in a sense stoop to the same level as the “enemy” by sining against them. It is not our place to deal out wrath. Yes, if we sin it is sin even though we have been forgiven and even though they deserve it. The problem is that the wrath is not ours to administer. In doing so, we sin against The One who’s wrath it is to deal out. I presume they are called our “enemy” because they sin against us and God. So if we should see this “enemy” who sinned against God and us in need of necessity, we are not to become part of the destructive sin process by taking God’s “The Wrath” into our hands and thereby sin ourselves. But this is where it gets interesting. Verse 21 closes out the sentence with “Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good”. What is the evil that would overcome us? It would be the falling to the temptation to administer that wrath in the form of withholding the food or drink or necessity that they need. But instead, overcome that evil reaction with good. That word “but” is the strongest way to state a contrast that Greek provides. The punch line to this whole presentation is that you would think that the Greek would use the word for humanitarian “good” to describe giving this “enemy” food, water, etc. Isn’t that exactly what giving food or water to someone is; a humanitarian good. But He does not. The Greek text does not use the word Kalos, which is the word for humanitarian good. It says that instead of being overcome by evil through sining against this enemy, we are to overcome the evil with AGAPE. It is not the act of giving the food or water that is being focused upon here. It is the not participating in the destructive process of sin that being presented. On the day judgement, that enemy, should they not repent and receive salvation, had a long list of sins. When we offered them not humanitarian support, but the very ministry of God himself through AGAPE love, there rejection of His Spirit only heaped more burning coals upon his head”. So putting it all together, we are to take the low road by not thinking of ourselves higher than we ought, realizing that our God is sovereign over all things and The administrator of The Wrath. Therefore do not be drawn into sinning against your enemy by becoming like him in sin, BUT (strongest contrast) give this enemy God in You in the form of a sacrificial love that seeks his spiritual success. If God thought that the humanitarian approach was what would lead him toward salvation, then He would say that. It is always AGAPE because only God as the source and the Holy Spirit as the producer have the power to save a soul. Or as another proverb should go; feed a lost man human effort alone and you feed only his body for a day, but live out AGAPE in front of him and he might just receive life for eternity.

Added Note: Since I was thinking about the "love" concept I said verse 21 ends with AGAPE (love) when it does not. It ends with AGATHOS. The reason it is so easy for me to inadvertently put it in there without realizing I did it, is because AGATHOS (good) is the same as AGAPE (love) in that it's source is from God and not man. Ex: Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." NO ONE is GOOD (agathos) except God. This is the type of good that only comes from God.