1 John 2:3-6

[ryan]

3) - And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commands.

4) - The one saying, I have known Him, and not keeping His commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that one.

5) - But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him.

6) - The one claiming to rest in Him ought so to walk himself as that One walked.

[Justin]

The first obvious question is what are His commandments; which I think John tells us in chapter 3. Also, is this another "lifestyle" thing or if you mess up His commandments one time you don't know him and what does it mean t keep?

[T]

Airline pilots when trained to fly at night or in fog, are trained to rely solely on their instrument panels and not by instincts or feeling. The reason behind this is pilot vertigo. While flying "blindly" a pilot may "feel" as if the plane is going in an extreme wrong direction, (right, left, up, in a nose dive) and will want to correct the plane to "straight". However, the instruments may be saying the plane is perfectly level and flying straight. The pilot, regardless of his very strong intuition to correct the plane, must trust what his instruments are telling him. This is so unnatural that many pilots are overcome by their feelings and correct the plane to what they feel is right, going against what the instrument panel is telling them, and they end up crashing, many to their death.

Pro 14:12 There is a way [that seems] right to a man, But its end [is] the way of death.
The Holy Spirit is to a believer his "instrument panel" and his Instructor. The "flesh" is his instrincts and feelings. Though a way may seem right to a man, in the end it leads to death. Every believer has The Instrument Panel and Instructor, the command is to trust Him. The non-believer doesn't have The Instrument Panel nor an instructor, and therefore is guided by only what he thinks is right, which leads to destuction.
On this earth we are His disciples, His students, and we are being taught by Him. I believe just as a student pilot has an instructor to take over the plane if there is imminent danger, so does our Instructor when we are overcome by the strong urge to trust our "flesh". The only real command for a pilot is to trust his instruments. The only real command for a believer is the same, trust in Him whom He sent.

[ryan]

Dude, that's a FANTASTIC illustration. Very cool concept. However, maybe we should say that God's Word is the "Instrument panel" and The Holy Spirit is the "Instructor"? Just because so many people today "Live by the spirit" if you know what I mean. We need The Holy Spirit to guide us, but we need the Scriptures to test whether or not we are guided by the "Right" spirit. Two sides to the same coin ya know? Maybe? Awesome stuff man.

[T]

very true. Though even non-believers have the bible, but don't really trust it, nor do they REALLY have THE WORD in their life. But for believers, yes, what you have said is very well put.

[ryan]

Exactly. That's why we need BOTH. We can even have intellectual knowledge of Scripture, but unless The Holy Spirit reveals and ministers it to us, we can't experience spiritual growth.

[ryan]

Okay, so a recap and a few questions.

- In verses 3-6 we have the same kind of contrasts showing the characteristics of a believer in contrast to the characteristics of a non-believer. Verses 3 & 5 are referring to a believer while 4 & 6 are referring to a non-believer, in the same format as chapter 1.

- Verse 6 - If you say that you abide in Him then YOU are indebted, not to produce, but to show the proof of your claim. This isn't saying that we are supposed to produce spiritual things in order to show that we are saved, but that IF we make this claim then we should be able to show the proof of this claim, which would be what The Lord has done in our lives.

- The word that is translated "Keep" in these verses does not mean "To do". It's a word that describes guards at a prison who guard against people coming from outside the prison in order to get the prisoners out. In these verses it's probably referring to having an attitude of guarding against outside influences. We must be sensitive towards outside influences that are against Christ's commands.

- In verse 5 the word "Perfected" means "To make complete". When a person receives Christ, Christs love is made complete in that person. The person is not made complete, but God's love is.

- And a question: Is there a difference between "His commandmenets" (Verses 3 & 4) and "His word" (Verse 5)? Or are they referring to the same thing?

[Deleted]

Jul 28, 2012 20:37:57 GMT -7 ryan said:

- And a question: Is there a difference between "His commandmenets" (Verses 3 & 4) and "His word" (Verse 5)? Or are they referring to the same thing?

There are 44 verses containing “his commandment(s)” in the NASB Translation. Of those 44, 36 are in the OT. The remaining 8 are in the NT. Of those 8 all but 1 are in 1 and 2 John. The last one is in Revelation. So as far as the NT goes, this is a phrase exclusive to John.

What the NT usage reveals is that , unless stated as different, “the commandment (s)” always relates to the Agape Love of The Father being expressed to and between believers as the evidence of salvation. You shall love the Lord your God....and love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus spoke nothing on His own. John 12:49 “For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak”. This is important because it is the OT commandment about Loving God and brethren that Jesus is talking about in His “commandment(s)”. In other words, John is quoting Jesus as having spoken a commandment, but Jesus was quoting the Father. John tells us what the commandment (s) is in 1John 3:23 “And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” You can tell by the “his Son” that this is from the Father. Now compare that to 1John 4:21 “And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.” So in short, “his commandments” in the OT is exclusive for the commandments of God the Father, and in the NT, the same is true except that Jesus is quoted as technically quoting the Father. It was a big part of the defense that Jesus gospel was not a different one but that of the Father of the OT fulfilled. To me it is ever more important to realize that people, in their case, gnostics, can fake everything but Agape. You cannot Agape love your brother unless God lives in you and in spite of personality differences and even hard core cultural differences like saved Jew and saved Gentile, one cannot help but Agape Love their fellow brother if God lives in them.

So having said that, I think "his commandments" is specifically about Agape from God in the believer and between believers, whereas "His word" is more inclusive of all that Jesus said.

[ryan]

1) - So when John says "His commandments" here he is quoting Christ, who is quoting The Father? And everywhere in the NT where "His commandments" is used, it's referring to the "Command" that believers WILL experience AGAPE love among one another? So in a sense verse 3 is saying "In this we know that we have known Him, if we have AGAPE for one another"? And verse 4 is saying that if someone says with their mouth that they have known Him, yet the AGAPE love of God is not present, then they are lying?

2) - And in verse 5 it's showing that the characterisitc of one who is truly saved, is that they will be keeping (Guarding) all of the things that Jesus said? What exactly does that mean to "Guard" the things that Jesus said? Not allow anything else that goes against what Jesus Himself said to influence us?

[Deleted]

Oct 25, 2012 6:33:48 GMT -7 ryan said:

1) - So when John says "His commandments" here he is quoting Christ, who is quoting The Father? And everywhere in the NT where "His commandments" is used, it's referring to the "Command" that believers WILL experience AGAPE love among one another? So in a sense verse 3 is saying "In this we know that we have known Him, if we have AGAPE for one another"? And verse 4 is saying that if someone says with their mouth that they have known Him, yet the AGAPE love of God is not present, then they are lying?

Yes I believe that John is quoting Jesus who is quoting the Father. Re: “everywhere in the NT...”, well it’s not quite that simple because you have to realize that entolay is the Greek word John uses for commandment which is the same word the Septuagint uses when God gave Moses the 10 commandments or entolays. And there is a place where Jesus is referencing those 10 entolays, but there are also a lot of English translations that translate other greek words as commandment(s) as well. In some of those places the Greek word used refers to the teachings of Jesus as “commands” and that is different than here in John’s letters. So you will have to look it up each time to be sure. My take on it is that the NT Jews understood The Command or The greatest Command or The Commandment to be the OT command of Love your God...and neighbor and that they understood that to mean the evidence of a right relationship with God the Father was the love for God and other Jews. In the NT, Jesus is quoting that truth, but adds to it “as I have loved you” and that is where the NT meaning of Agape comes into play. It is a sacrificial love working for the spiritual welfare of a person. I believe you are stating verses 3 and 4’s meaning correctly or at least as I understand it.

2) - And in verse 5 it's showing that the characterisitc of one who is truly saved, is that they will be keeping (Guarding) all of the things that Jesus said? What exactly does that mean to "Guard" the things that Jesus said? Not allow anything else that goes against what Jesus Himself said to influence us?

Looking at your post, we have the same understanding about the prison guard application of protecting from outside influence. I will add the concept of WHY someone is guarding it. The Christian “guards” what Jesus said because they have a mindset or attitude that what they are guarding is WORTH guarding. This is what is driving them to protect it so diligently. Both concepts make up a fuller presentation of the Greek word translated as “keep”. My experience is that it manifests itself as a desire to preserve, protect, maintain and grow in the correct understanding because of the awareness of the great value. I think an abundance of Scriptures support that that awareness of the value is an evidence of salvation. There is a religious pseudo love for the Scriptures and then there is a relational love with the Word of Him who has given His life that I might live.

[ryan]

Okay, that makes sense. So is the word "Commandments" plural in verses 3 and 4 then because it's referring to the two greatest commandments?

[Deleted]

Oct 25, 2012 14:18:07 GMT -7 ryan said:

Okay, that makes sense. So is the word "Commandments" plural in verses 3 and 4 then because it's referring to the two greatest commandments?

Yes, I think so because the context show it was something Jesus said, it's plural, and that it uses the definite article which in both OT and NT points toward the greatest commandment of love God and neighbor. Jesus singlular "The Command" would be where He added "as I have loved you, love one another".


Matthew 22:37 And He said to him, “‘ YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ Matthew 22:38 “This is the great and foremost commandment. Matthew 22:39 “The second is like it, ‘ YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’

[T]

Just to make sure I understand, this "you shall" is a future tense? Like something that will happen when we have been made incorruptible?

[ryan]

Yes, I believe it's a future tense INDICATIVE (Meaning a "Statement of fact"). Since God IS AGAPE, once a person receives Christ into themselves they WILL love God and WILL love their neighbor. It's impossible not to because it's God Himself who is doing the "Loving" through us. As I mentioned another place however, this doesn't always mean that we will "Like" our neighbor.

[Justin]

The way Bill helped me understand this was by asking the question:
If you are loving the Lord your God with ALL your heart, ALL your mind, ALL your soul and ALL your strength they what do you have left to love your neighbor with?

This helped illustrate that we don't do the loving, and love isn't a tangible emotion that we go out and apply to our neighbor but rather it's God in us loving through us.

The future tense make better sense in that light, at least for me.