Make up.

[ryan]

I have been wondering about this for some time (especially recently with my 13 year old daughter). What are the Biblical views of make-up/jewelry, or ANYTHING that is meant to make our physical appearance attractive? Looking at 1 Peter 3:1-4 which reads:

1 ¶ Likewise, wives, submitting yourselves to your own husbands, that even if any disobey the Word, through the behavior of the wives, without a word they will be won,
2 observing your pure behavior in fear.
3 Of whom let it not be the outward act of braiding of hairs, and of putting gold around, or of clothing, garments of adornment,
4 but the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible adornment of the meek and quiet spirit, which is of great value before God.

It sounds to me like this is saying that we shouldn't do anything to make others notice our physical appearance in any way, but we should want them to notice our inner person and notice Christ who is in us.

What are your thoughts?

[Justin]

Well - at first glance of these verses including verse 1, it appears to be addressing a woman's behavior toward her non-believing husband. If that makes a difference will be determined by this discussion.

It seems that the husband observes her behavior and not her appearance - I'm not sure after reading verse 1 that this applies to women adorning themselves in general. The braiding of hair and adorning of jewelry may distract from her living Christ in front of him - especially since us men are visually stimulated.

I'm going to do some bible searching and see if there is any biblical instructions. I would initially say that this goes beyond the dictate of conscience and would border on causing another to stumble depending on the extent of the make up/hair/clothing.

To be continued...

[T]

Dr.Vernon Mc Gee once stated, "If the barn needs painting, paint it!" I always thought that was pretty funny. I think this is one of those many gray areas in the bible. My understanding of being one of the called out ones, is that we are bound to no law. As discussed in the prior forum, we are known by our fruits, and our fruits are known by Christ in us, doing His work of sanctification. Is what we wear, what we eat, or how we adorn ourselves outwardly now to become an issue decided by man or should it be left to the leading of the Spirit?
On a lighter funny note, I might mention that most of nature shows us it is the MALE species that is adorned in beauty and the females rather bland. So, maybe our culture has it all wrong! You guys ready to start wearing some make-up?

[ryan]

YES! Like Peacocks right? ^_^ But who is to decide whether or not the barn DOES need painting? And as called out ones we ARE bound to a law, just not THE law (meaning the Mosaic Law). Believers are bound by the law of faith right? Maybe bound is the wrong word. As far as the fruits, I guess that's my question. If a person has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within them, shouldn't they live life in a way that will make HIM the focal point? In a way that would allow others to see HIM in their "Inner" life? Not trying to draw attention to the physical appearance, but to their inward spirit?

[T]

I have a feeling, that the more biblical rules we set up for oursevles, the more our children will see a hypocritical side in us. Like, mommy is wearing make-up and some nice jewelry, but I'm being told I can't and it's wrong. Dad says we are to obey the laws of the land, but I see him always going over the speed limit, and he ran a red light the other day trying to beat the yellow light. Dad says as christians we are not supposed to gossip, but I hear him and mom talking about the Thompson's, and sometimes it doesn't sound very positive, but rather judgemental and condescending. Dad says, drinking is bad, but I see him pickup a beer or two sometimes.
Were does it end, once you start? I mean in some churches it's taught that women should only wear dresses. How long exactly does the dress need to be in order to qualify as a pure, holy christian woman?
So, if you think that your daughter shouldn't wear make up until she leaves the home, and this rule is going to establish her in her faith and draw her closer to God and make her more pure, then I guess that's what you should do.
Another question that needs answering is, "Why does my daughter want this." The answer may provide a direction of teaching about inward beauty and focusing on what the bible says. Or, the answer may prove no teaching needed, she just doesn't like some blemishes on her face from zits (or whatever) and wants some light make up to smooth things out.

Finally, Jacque enjoys an online site that offers daily devos, it's called "aboverubies." This woman has some really great teachings and challenges for women to live their lives as a living sacrifice unto their God and to return to purity, and more importantly, what purity actually means. It would be a great devo for mother and daughter time. Make sure that the teenager understands that mom is not sitting down with a devo to preach to her on how to live, but rather a, 'Lets sit down and grow tgether in the Lord, for I fall short in many of these areas and I want to learn and grow in the Lord, just as I hope you want to as well.'

[Justin]

I think the point missed is that we should not be doing the things you mentioned. There are several biblcal rules that we are to follow: do not be drunk, avoid sexual immorality and etc. The things you mention should be avoided simply for the conscience of others according to Romans 14.

Don't speed, don't drink - it may cause your brother to stumble. Christian freedom is the freedom to NOT do things, we are free to not drink because we are not enslaved to anything. Freedom is not a license to do what our flesh feels like doing. God hates the flesh, satisfying our flesh is the problem. Whatever is not from the leading of God's Spirit is sin - Rom 14:23

Is God leading someone to drink a beer? To speed? To wear make-up? The heart of the issue here is: what is from out of faith and what is not? I realize that we can take anything and say "is this from God's Spirit?" and quibble all day long, instead we can pick a single item like addorning oneself and see what the motives and reasons are for each individual and what does scripture say.

Clearly if someone is not convicted about a matter then it's not up to us to try and guilt them over a non-mandated issue.

[T]

See, this is what I'm talking about. At what point is a person drunk. You get 10 people to judge someone whether they're drunk or not, and you will get several different judgements. None of which may even be what God would judge a drunk. Jesus turned water to wine for a wedding party. Please remember, He did this because they ran out of wine! So, doesn't this make Jesus an enabler to people drinking and getting drunk? Maybe our definition of "being drunk" is wrong. Maybe it's not single acts of getting drunk that's wrong, but rather a constant state of drunkenness. This is what I mean as gray areas. And as I mentioned in my previous post, ask why make up is wanted; find out the motivating factor behind it, then go from there. In the Spirit we are governed by the law of love, not the letter. Jacque doesn't need to remind me to remain faithful, nor do I need to be reminded as to read a law book to keep me faithful. It is my love for her, my kids, and my God that keeps me faithful, though the battle of lust, in my sinful flesh, continues to war against this law of love.
Also, in 1 Peter 3:3, doesn't it say 'not to let your outward appearance ONLY be a testimony of your faith, but rather your inward beauty'. So, don't be pretty on the outside, but bitter, angry, nasty or whatever on the inside. But instead, a balance of both, with the priority of the inside being beautiful.

[Justin]

The problem with that argument is twofold:
1.) Everybody is affected by a single glass of wine unless they have built up a tolerance to alcohol. So as long as we've built up a tolerance it's ok even though the process wasn't? Again Romans 14 covers this. The definition of drunk then becomes irrelevant.

2.) If you research religious Jewish weddings you will find that the wine they drank was not an alcoholic beverage. It was SEVERELY frowned upon to be drunk or even have your mental capacities affected. Everyone was to be alert and watching, waiting for the bridegroom and then celebrating their union before God. People presume it was alcohol because the English word 'wine' and the master of the feast stating that they brought out the good "wine" after the guest have well drunk, opposite of normal behavior.

I'm surprised at so many Christians defense of drinking when it's nothing more than satisfying the flesh. Isn't it better to simply not drink based on Romans 14? What reasoning do we have to allow or encourage drinking - even one glass? That's the freedom we have, to not do things that would cause another to stumble or violate their conscience.

1 Peter 3:3 states that beauty should NOT come from outward appearance; I'm not seeing how a case could be made for a balance of outer and inner. You emphasize ONLY but I'm not finding that in any texts.

I'm not in anyway judging anyone or saying it's "wrong to drink no matter what", what my concerns are "why drink? What's the motivation?" and "what, according to Romans 14, would this do to another believer?" I think these questions are relevant to the original post and boil down to motivation/heart condition. If we can drill down perhaps we can come to an understanding of many of these "is it ok to..." questions.

[Justin]

The more I ponder this, the more I'm certain it boils down to motivation. The simple act of applying make-up is not wrong any more than getting a tatoo is. Consider a news caster or actor who wears make-up to make them appear natural on screen and to eliminate glare.
My wife, who is very beautiful in her actions and walk, also wears make-up. Is this vanity and sinfull? Not unless the Spirit convicts HER that it is. In the case of children, there must be clear guidlines established by the parents based upon their conscience until the child is allowed to make her own choices, in which case it becomes between her and the Lord.

[ryan]

I think that I would agree with this. However, I don't think that most women (or men for that matter) really examine themselves to see what their motives are. Especially when it comes to make up and doing hair etc. Women have just done this for so long that it's routine. Much of the time they don't even realize that they are doing it to draw attention to their physical attributes.

[Justin]

You're right, they don't examine themselves - that's why it's up to the Spirit to convict them as He deems necessary - it becomes a dictate of their conscience. I think women are covering what they think are imperfections rather that trying to draw attention to themselves (generally speaking).

[ryan]

Do you realize that you told me I was right, and then went on to disagree with me? ;D

I think this topic has a lot to do with specifics that I struggle with personally. I really don' expect anyone else to understand. But what's most important is that we understand what scripture says about this matter so that's where we should focus I guess.

Hey Bill!! A little help? ;D

[Justin]

LOL - I said you were right that they don't examine themselves. The Spirit convicts where scripture doesn't say. We all should be examining ourselves but what good would that do if we don't recognize a problem? I could examine a sick person but not knowing what I'm seeing it would be fruitless.
Until the Spirit brings it to their conscience then they have noting to examine, unless scripture addresses the issue directly.

[ryan]

Or until WE bring it to their attention. Through the Spirit of course.....

[ryan]

So.........do you we have final statement on this topic?