CHARITY

[T]

Ryan, the LDS church members do good works to EARN their way to heaven. I'm frustrated beyond all reason with you guys because you ought to know that I don't believe in doing good works FOR God or to EARN my way to heaven, so your point here Ryan not received as teaching me anything I don't know already. Yes I know sometimes God's LOVE (wait I better put AGAPE) in us will cause people to hate us, but the topic in mind here was compassion and humanitarian deeds. This why is said earlier, that we can't turn a blind eye to the needs of other's. Since we are talking about giving to the poor, or stopping to pray with the sick, I want to stay on that subject, not wonder off on the many thousands of other ways God's AGAPE love is shown through us. I guess if I would have said "have mercy and compassion for the poor while keeping a spiritual mindset and not an earthly mindset is important in a believers daily life" from the beginning, we all couild have been spared this merry-go-round, waste of time and energy discussion. Pardon me for not making my stance clear from the beginning, but again, you ought to know me better than that.

[Justin]

I think it simply boils down to motive. T, you have always been a caring person and I would never fault you for that. I think the issue is that so many churches (including one most of us used to attend) teach that it is our responsibility to go out and care, go out and love and present human compassion as the gospel; thus smearing Christ's name all over their error.

We are guilty of defending God's Word so often, because the American "church" has completly lost sight of it's truth, that we presume too much. I ask you to forgive me because I have done that to you.

Is the compassion in you from God, I can not say. I can only comment when it's presented as a requirement, a command, a doctrine. That would be wrong and against what scripture teaches.

Can the Lord give someone a heart of compassion? Absolutly, but never without sound doctrine. At that point one will be presented with oportunities and will never have too seek to be compasionite, loving or good. These things will come from the same Spirit that guided them to the opportunity in the first place.

For clarity, I don't think it's wrong to be compassionate... but if that is our command then we all failed, including Christ, because He did not heal or have compassion on everyone... and we fall way short of the same.

[Deleted]

There has been a tremendous amount of Biblical truth presented here regarding your basic stance. Possibly more crucial doctrinal truth has been touched upon in this one place and in such a short time than anywhere I have ever been. I think enough information has been presented in order to bring this thread full circle and I want to try to put it all into one long post for clarity sake. In the light of making it instructive, concise, and fun, (although long) I am going to present it as if in a court of law where testimony was taken and evidence was presented and examined and now it is time for a verdict. I think this way you might see that the evidence is absolutely overwhelming and that in this way, it might edify.

We might call T’s part the defense and Mark’s part the prosecution with the understanding up front that it is NOT T. vs. Mark but the scriptures vs. our respective understanding. The following two facts underpin the closing statements.

* The prosecution presented from the defendants own testimony that the defendant does indeed have a “position”. Because the defendant did not challenge the findings, the “position” as stated, stands.

* The prosecution rebutted both the defendants verses and the statements being presented as a defense for his “position”. Because the prosecutions corrections were not challenged, they stand.



The prosecutions closing statement:

It has been established that the defendant’s position is that: The mission of Christians, (defined as those possessing the Holy Spirit, either individually or together corporately as The Church), is to administer humanitarian care, out of compassion, to the lost as a means to bring them before the gospel, since many will not listen without these humanitarian efforts, and that the Church is failing in
that mission.

It was established by the prosecution that the mission of God’s people, both in the Old and New Testament periods was to administer the resources of God’s people for the needs of God’s people, not the surrounding pagan nations. In the Old testament, it was the peculiarities of God’s Holy people that was the testimony to the lost nations. They were not to intermarry or live among the surrounding nations for fear that they would be enticed into following after foreign gods. There rules of clean and unclean and their dietary laws kept them separated. It was God’s design that they remain secluded. To disobey would be to profane what God had called Holy which means “set apart”. If someone from out of a surrounding nation wanted to worship the God of the Jews, then they were to be taken in and required to observe all of the Jewish laws and sacrifices, living among the Jews.

It was established that in the New Testament period of Acts, that all of the resources of the Christians were administered to the needs of fellow Christians so that none of the Christians had need. It was established that it was because of Agape love that the administration of church resources was distributed amongst the Christians. It was established that Jesus said this display of Agape love in action would be the testimony to the surrounding nations that the believers were disciples of Jesus the Messiah. Just as in the Old Testament, it was this peculiarity of the Christian, namely the expression of the Holy Spirit who has in-dwelt them and is expressing Himself, one to another Christian, that is to cause the pagan to come and ask the believer concerning the hope that is within him. The main difference in the New Testament is that the Jewish and Gentile beliers are not to remain secluded among the nations, but this has rules to dictate the level of interaction and degree of friendship with the pagan nations. The Christian is not to become unequally yoked. The Christian is to use the things of the world, but not overuse the things of the world.

It was established that the “miracles” that Jesus performed were, more correctly stated, “signs” being pre-arranged by God and designed by God to point people to the fact that He was fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and thereby proving that He was the promised Messiah. It was established that Jesus did not heal everyone and many who were shown compassion later had illness and death, so the compassion was not an ongoing ministry. It was established that His compassion for healing did not extend to Timothy’s stomach nor Paul’s many ailments. Jesus ministered to some and walked past others. It is established that it is God who decides who will receive ministry and who won’t. It was established that the Ephesian Church’s compassion did not extend to those widows who did not qualify. Their letter from Paul, was a circular letter being passed around and received by at least all of the churches in that postal district. It was established that Jesus’ compassion always accompanied a parallel spiritual message but that Jesus Himself established that it was the spiritual message that was the purpose and took precedence behind the physical compassionate healing.

It was further established that a Christian is a person who possesses the Holy Spirit. It was established that The Church on Earth is made up of all the scattered, Spirit possessing, believers around the world at any given time. It was established that at best, and according to Paul’s presentations, that a building with a sign over the door is a mixed group of Christians and non Christians. At worst, according to Peter, the building with a sign over it is being led by and attended by demonic forces. It has been established that at no time can the words “ The Church” be used to describe any building with a sign over the door or missions movement, no matter how popular, and still be a biblical definition of The Church. Therefore, when one speaks of what the Church should be doing and is not doing, one must separate out the mixed crowd, because it is established that those who possess the Holy Spirit, thereby being a Christian by Biblical definition, WILL be expressing God as The Church collective even if there counterparts sitting next to them in service are not and cannot. To quote someone else, Jesus did not call anyone to join an organization or to be part of a movement no matter how popular, but to be a follower and learner of Him. Paul said there must be separation in the church to identify who is of the Lord and who is not. That leaves one side gathering as religious works of self to whom Jesus will say, I never knew you and it would be wrong to identify them as The Church. It has been established as a fact that the Christian is expressing God, because it is God who is keeping, guarding, and guiding and working through the Christian through works that were prepared in advance that the Christian should walk in them. It has been established that this is not a work of themselves nor human effort. If it were, the text would say it is out of man, but the text expressly says that this work is from out of God as a source, and is the work of God through the Christian and that this will be, to the largest degree, accomplished in individuals scattered throughout the world, as they simply live out their daily lives as followers of Christ. If a group somewhere is fortunate enough to be completely made up of Christians it is an anomaly and it will not be long before Peters warning of attack from within and without will come to pass.

It was established that because the Christian possesses the Holy Spirit of God, Who is Agape Love, that the Christian WILL Agape Love God, and WILL Agape love fellow Christians because it is God in the Christian fellowshipping with God and God in the other Christian. This is what it means to have fellowship and to be of one accord. literally to have harmony like a symphony because God is orchestrating agape love in the Christian and their mindsets are the same. They have died to self and are in submission lining up with each other behind Jesus and under God the Father. It was established that God is the source and expression of this Agape love and that the Christian cannot generate Agape love themselves and cannot summon the Agape love of God. It was established that a person without the Holy Spirit cannot Agape Love another person because they do not possess the author of Agape love, Jesus Christ, nor the producer of Agape’s fruit, the Holy Spirit. It was established that it was not a Christian performing an act of love from out of their own motivation or out of their own human works of compassion, but God in them administering the Agape Love that constitutes Agape love. It was established that the world’s definition of love and God’s use of Agape love are not the same. God’s Agape love is a sacrificial love that seeks another’s spiritual welfare regardless of how that makes either party “feel”. Church discipline is Agape love, excommunication is Agape love, rebuke and correction are Agape love but compassion without Agape is not Agape.

Paul established in the teaching section that the Christian is to remain in the position in life in which he was called. As these New Testament Christians came under severe persecution, they fled for fear of persecution thereby becoming the Diaspora. This is the context in which Jesus said literally that “after having been” scattered, and then the command - “be making disciples”. This is the mission of the church; to be making disciples which presumes first, that one must be saved, and second, that they be acquiring the knowledge necessary to equip themselves to be able to carry out that command. Wherever they are, they are to learn to become content in their situation, knowing that God has sovereignly designed it specifically for them. They are to grow in the grace and knowledge of their Lord and that process is defined as their “walk” in life. It was established that this “walk” is the testimony to the lost and the presentation of the “good news” is the message of the Church. It is established that the lost come to the hearing of the gospel, not because of humanitarian works that draw them, but because it is the work of God to draw those who will receive to His gospel. The lost may not see Agape or God or the good news in a building with a sign over it and billion dollar marketing campaign with enough swag to sticker every car on earth ten times over, but they WILL see Agape love in action, as compassion, living out the good news IF God draws them and gives them eyes to see and ears to hear.

It was established that those who Jesus administered compassion to, all came to Him or responded to Him for who He is as the Messiah. Because it is established that the resources of the Church is to be administered among the Church so that none have need, and because it is established that the individual believer is to learn to be content with what God provides in light of that sharing of resources, it is inappropriate for the Church to seek to distribute those resources designed for the Church collective, to the lost who are not saved, even if the motive is that they might not have otherwise listened to the good news. We know that God sent them if they are drawn toward us and the walk and tolerate the message of die to self and submit before God etc. If they won’t tolerate sound teaching, they will go out from among us. We do not know if God sent them if we gather them all up and pronounce salvation because they responded in human effort to a human effort marketing campaign or gimmick. It was established that people respond to the good news because of a heart condition and not a human humanitarian effort. Basically, as far as I can tell, because God is sovereign and because the Christian is to be a follower of Christ, the only time a Christian should provide humanitarian care outside the Church is when God, by His sovereign providence, brings a non-believer in need directly into the path of a Christian. But even then, much prayer and wisdom must be exercised. Man does not save the day like a super-hero and it is often misguided to try to "help" someone who God is bringing low because of their rebellion towards Him. In that case, you find yourself fighting against God, not helping a potential convert. Much wisdom is needed indeed. Added note: We are commanded to not take the name of the Lord in vein. The word "take" literally means to "hold up" as a placard. The warning is that we are not to set out to do something from out of our human effort and "hold up" the name of God over our actions as if to be saying this is God not me. The difference in practice is that either a person is leading out and claiming God's work is being done, or a person is being led by God and it God who has put His name over the work. The only way to ensure that it is God who is leading is to be sensitive to the circumstances. If one is "creating" the circumstances, then that person can never know if it is God or not. Many needless arguments take place because someone is defending that "you can't tell me it isn't God doing this". That may be true, but just as true is that the person them self cannot say that it is God doing the work. If a person is responding to a situation which was out of their control, but find themselves in, then they can be assured that, because God is soveriegn and omnicient, that God has either led them into it or at the very least allowed the circumstances to involve the individual. This is what Jesus did with the disciples over and over. He purposefully put them into circumstances to teach them to look to and wait upon God. The lesson over and over was to not take matters into their own hands for God. This is a part of what we mean when we keep saying our position is to be following behind Jesus.

It was established that there is a historical section of the Bible and a teaching section and that it is improper to take a historical section and read into it, a teaching that is not explicitly stated. This is what is known as eisegesis. It comes from the Greek word “eis” which means to put “into” the text, one’s own ideas. Incidentally, this relates to the word heretic. A heretic is a person who holds onto their eisegesis “position” of personal belief even after having been presented the overwhelming weight of the evidence proving otherwise. It basically means “to choose” to believe something. Biblical Bible study is to be exegesis from the Greek word “ek” which means to draw “out” what is already there for explanation. Secondly, if a teaching is presumed to be in the text of a historical account, it must not conflict with, or be in opposition to, an established clear teaching in the teaching section. It was established that the text cited in James, which is not a teaching but a simple statement regarding the caring for Widows and Orphans along with the conclusion presented cannot conflict with, or be in opposition to Paul’s clear teaching in the teaching section of the New Testament defining widows and their families as those in the church. It has been established that the teaching section of Romans to Revelation is where the individuals that make up The Church are to take their doctrines from.

You asked me early on in another thread about how can one undo years of false teaching and I can tell you that it starts not with something you do or don’t do, but with an attitude of the heart. One must be be willing, in the heart, to stop dead in their tracks and be willing change course to follow wherever the scriptures lead. It means a willingness to re-examine everything you have been taught, to see if it stands up and carries the weight of the evidence of Scripture. It’s an openness that comes from seeking to follow Jesus and deny self; to realize that in me is no good thing and so who am I that I read into the text something that is not there? Who am I that I think I have that kind of authority? It’s in an attitude of reverence and submission to God that we approach HIS Scriptures realizing the whole time that we are but a worm steeped in iniquity and that if God not keep and guide me, then I am left truly lost. I will never say that God is not faithful. That leaves only one option if a man is not brought before a sound teacher during his life; it is because he truly does not thirst for a sound teacher. Martin Luther was quoted as being posed a hypothetical question something like, if you were to find out that you only have ten years to live what would you do? Some said you better get out there get preaching now, but Martin said he would spend the first 5 preparing that God might use him mightily the second 5. That is understanding that we are totally dependent upon God and all we can DO is to make a decision to get prepared for service. He must do the rest. Paul said that the Word is for the mending of the Christian in order that he become prepared for service. There is a time to teach and a time to take a stand and not compromise and then there is a time to be quiet, be still, listen, take it in and learn from it. It takes honesty from within and wisdom from above to know what to do an when it needs to be done.

[retzev]

Awesome stuff. Great questions and responses!